Submachine Guns, Pistols Stolen From LAPD SWAT Training Site

LOS ANGELES (CBS) — Two separate investigations are underway Monday after multiple submachine guns and pistols used for SWAT training by the LAPD were found missing.

KNX 1070’s Pete Demetriou reports the weapons were stolen from a building owned and used specifically for training by the LAPD.

The 21 MP-5 submachine guns and a dozen Colt 45 automatic pistols were taken from a locked container inside the Kennedy Building on San Pedro Street, police officials said.

The location — which formerly housed clothing firms before it was donated to the LAPD several years ago — is considered a secure site, Deputy Chief Michael Downing told the Associated Press.

While the weapons had been modified to fire training ammunition, the concern is that they could easily be converted back to fire live rounds.

“These guns can’t be used with regular ammunition unless they’re significantly modified back,” said LAPD Commander Andy Smith.

With the proper fittings, the MP-5  can fire live ammo at 600 rounds minute — potentially putting heavy firepower into criminal hands.

A second administrative investigation is also underway as to why the weapons were stored in a location with no alarms or security cameras.

“We always do an internal investigation whenever anything like this occurs, and we’ll have our investigators look at it from top to bottom,” said Smith.

More from Pete Demetriou
Comments

One Comment

  1. Herbert says:

    Looking for current market value of MP5 Submachine guns, I found a 2004 listing that shows about $15.000 each, so quadrupled to current value, each at approximaely $40,000 makes a sizeable haul for Mexican drug runners.
    “Here is a random sample of prices for various MP5 submachine gun configurations as of May 21, 2004.•H & K MP5K PDW – $12,450

    •HK MP5K-PDW Fleming sear gun – $12,900

    •HK MP5K PDW Flemming sear – $13,950

    •HK-MP5K, fleming sear conversion done by S&H Arms – $13,000

    •H&K MP5A3 with Flemming Firearms Sear – $13,900

    •H&K SEAR – $9,300

    •HK Auto sear by S&H Arms, never installed – $9,995

    •H&K MP5A3 (HK 94) Reg Receiver – $13,900

    •H&K MP5 Qualified Sear RR – $12,500

    •H&K MP-5 A2 – $13,999

    •H&K MP5A3 RR by Phoenix Arms -$12,500

    •H & K SP-89 (re-stamped: MP5K) Fleming Sear – $15,50”

    1. Duh! says:

      Not sure where you got your price list, but here is a current used MP5 on sale for $1495.00

      http://www.gunsamerica.com/970014769/Guns/Rifles/Class-3-Rifles/Class-3-Dealer-Law-Enf-Only/H_K_MP5_A3_Sub_Machine_gun.htm

      Guess in this economy you should not have multiplied by 4, but instead should have divided by 8.

      1. Sage Advice says:

        Sorry “Duh!” – shows how much you know.

        The MP5 you cited is for semi-auto – and used. A true semi-auto Heckler & Koch MP5 typically runs around $3,500. A legit Full Auto as likely SWAT would have could go for $10K to $15K – for a civilian cost with approved NFA tax-stamp.

        Black-market? Anyone’s guess, and likely within a $5K to $8K range.

        —————-

      2. Joe says:

        I am a federally licensed machinegun dealer. The MP5 machineguns that the LAPD use are manufactured after May of 1986 and are restricted to law enforcement and military only. In the business these are referred to as ‘post sample’ guns and are significantly less expensive than guns available for purchase by civilians. Current price to police department on post sample MP5 depending on accessories or condition will run $900 – $1500 each from a number of sources. Interestingly, depending on the level of customization and accessories, the 1911 pistols could easily cost the same each.

      3. Stephen Small says:

        Actually Sage, the weapon in question is full auto but not available for transfer to “Civilians”. The same MP5, fully transferable, is out of sight pricewise.

      4. Sanjaya says:

        I guess that makes it less of a problem, huh?

      5. Sanjaya says:

        Where was Eric Holder during the theft?

      6. hawk73 says:

        thats a non nfa item, i love experts who know nothing.

      7. Ranger01 says:

        This compares to the $15,000 toilet seat.

    2. Terminator 2012 says:

      Sounds like you should be the one first investigated Herbie!

    3. Don says:

      As a gun enthusiast I can tell you that a full auto pre 1986 MP5 still goes for about $13,000 to $15,000 to citizens. Military and Law enforcement do not pay that much for the MP5 because they get ones built post 1986.

    4. Manny says:

      According to Diane Sawyer, of the Disney Corporation, any middle school kid can buy an UZI in the schoolyard for one hundred dollars.

      1. franki says:

        yea but they need a not from Eric Holder.

      2. MAGNUM says:

        Sometimes I think any kid could buy Diane Sawyer for a hundred dollars…referring to her integrity and intellect, of course!

    5. S Von Smith says:

      those prices are off buy a lot.

    6. Ed Miller says:

      Did these prices come from a video game or are they “black market” retail?

      (Because since 1986, no NEW full-autos could be made for or transferred to the civilian market).

  2. icecream says:

    I want to know why weapons of that type were stored in that gang-infested, crime-inundated area with out any alarm devices and video monitoring equipment in place. Who was in charge of this. Who set this burglary up ? It reeks of possibly an inside job !

    1. Ron says:

      “In Fast and Furious, ATF agents allegedly allowed thousands of weapons to cross the border and fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels…. It’s called letting guns “walk,” and it remained secret to the public until Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was murdered last December. Two guns from Fast and Furious were found at the scene, and ATF agent John Dodson blew the whistle on the operation.”

      Does this sound familiar? Eric Holder being investigated. Maybe the Mexican Mafia or drug cartels have INFECTED the LAPD. If this is true, then HEADS SHOULD ROLL !!! And I am NOT talking about in MEXICO.

      1. Klaus says:

        Which cop stole the guns? Or maybe it was a federal agent.

        The CIA and other federal agencies run the drugs into America. U.S. troops are used to protect the opium poppy production in Afghanistan which generates $500 billion in annual sales for the globalist banking cartel.

        Why aren’t the bankers who launder every penny of drug money ever arrested?

      2. Rob Frey says:

        I think the family of Brian terry should file a wrongful death lawsuit against Obama, Holder and the entire government. These buffoons have put all of us at risk and should be made to pay for there actions with jail time and every red penny they have.
        Along with that the American people file against the congress to act and demanding impeachment.

    2. bumpkin says:

      Fast and Furious, continued!

    3. aubreyfarmer says:

      The cops were in the best position to steal the firearms. They would have known there was little or no security and they would also know the criminals the weapons could be fenced to. 10 to 1 says the cops were instrumental in the heist.

  3. Sage Advice says:

    Check out my auctions on Gunbroker.com – and hey, I’ve added a “Buy It Now” feature as I would really like to sell these rather fast and furious – before I go on my trip to Switzerland.

    By the way, the silencers and Drop-in Auto sears are not included: link to my homepage for those! But I’ll give a 10% discount on those parts to whomever purchases the guns!

    Your friend, Kenneth Melson.

    —————————–

  4. Muck Fu says:

    Either an inside job or a test to see how secure these weapons are..

  5. Igor Doublebubblevich. says:

    This happened before with xcop women chaser RAPHAEL PEREZ from Rampart,

  6. villaragossa, the mayor says:

    LA’S FINEST ??? no camera, no alarms. i can tell you this much… the mexicans cop in l.a.p.d. knows where these guns went. to their homies on the streets. or the swat cop’s simple drove up to the building in uniform at daylight and unloaded them while a crew of gang member was nearby watching.them.

    1. Ron says:

      And Mayor V. probably got his usual KICKBACK for it !!!!

  7. james says:

    inside job or set-up who cares.

  8. Robert Thomas says:

    The .45 Government Model pistols wouldn’t be too difficult to convert back to operational use. The MP-5’s would be more difficult unless you had a supplier of the parts that make it full-auto, and legally that wouldn’t work. It would have to be black market since no legitimate dealer could sell just anyone the parts, especially in CA where it’s hard enoughto own normal guns.

    1. S Von Smith says:

      Not sure where you live in Ca that makes it so hard to own a gun. all I have ever had to do was just pay for them.

  9. Joe Doakes says:

    Was Eric Holder in the vicinity. I hear he is low on inventory.
    🙂

  10. Jaded-1 says:

    Obviously another ATF operation gone wrong. But then, don’t they all. The question is: Will they send enough ammo to the cartels to make these guns useful. Full auto burns it up at a Fast and Furious pace.

  11. The A.T.F. says:

    It’s Ok, on there way to Mexico. You can have them back after they have been used to kill some border agents…… LOVE THE A.T.F.

  12. Ben Dover says:

    It is becoming a fact that cops need to be disarmed…They clearly are no better than the crooks…that is if you can tell them apart….Arm the citizens and let the cops ask for help when they need it…

    1. bumpkin says:

      Ben, I am liking that idea! There would be a lot less criminal activity if we all carried.

    2. wallyintouch says:

      I love that idea. There’s not too many things worse than an ego-maniacal cop except for maybe a child molesting TSA agent.

  13. Carl Curmudgeon says:

    Mystery solved: Eric Holder and Barack Obama sent them to Mexico.

  14. dwstick says:

    Relax, they’ll ‘mysteriously’ turn up in Mexico soon.

  15. JustEd says:

    Inside job without a doubt…and given that cops aren’t the smartest tool in the toolbox, they will be caught soon.

  16. EODdevon says:

    The prices listed are for “Transferable” weapons, the police use “non-transferable” what that means is a transferable weapon being the same in function, parts, etc will cost a citizen $12,000 usd and the non-transferable will cost $800 usd. Remember the only difference is that one was made before 1968 and was registered and since 1968 non have been allowed to be registered and since 1983 they can only be sold to cops unless they were registered before 1968.

    1. mhs2xs says:

      That’s 1986

  17. Kinnison says:

    “L.A.’s Finest”… What a hoot.

  18. suibne says:

    THE entire state of california should fall into the sea Morons
    suibne

  19. fanden says:

    The cops , ATF, and FEDs lose these things all the time, including computers with YOUR 411 on them. NObody cares, nobody is held accountable. “The feds are alllowed to make mistakes.”

  20. Fanny Forbes Franklen says:

    And no one will be fired, have a pay cut or disciplined in any manner. Because government is men and women providing services at the barrel of a gun, paid with your wealth, extracted through taxation with the threat of deadly force if you don’t pay their tax collector. If they were really there to protect you and your property, they wouldn’t be the first to use deadly force or confiscation.

    http://911essentials.com

  21. Brad says:

    Investigators may want to start by asking Eric Holder. He’s well versed in smuggling guns.

  22. Gunny G says:

    This is Obama and Holder’s Operation Help the Crips and Bloods.

    http://theantiliberalzone.blogspot.com/
    THE ANTI LIBERAL ZONE

  23. Chris says:

    Please,theres been a serious misunderstanding by the press.The guns in question are part of an ATF investigation in hollywood gunnrunning apparently involving entertainment A listers. Not to worry, da, we have the serial numbers. Now that they have the guns we can begin our indept investigation

  24. Rick O'Shea says:

    So who will be prosecuted for improper storage of firearms? Maybe even making guns available to minors. If Jpe Blow had done this he’d be trying to make bail.

  25. WHITEMAN says:

    ATF Selling Price for MP5:
    American citizen – not for sale
    American citizen, military veteran – not for sale
    Mexican drug dealer and smuggler – October special $750 and mail-in rebate.

  26. evefromeden says:

    Its the Flea Party that is behind this.

  27. tiredofidiots says:

    “a dozen Colt 45 automatic pistols ” Huh – I did not realize the Colt 45 is full-auto. Even the government issued GI model needs to have the trigger pulled for each round that cycles through. Maybe the reporter needs additional schooling.

    1. TonyD95B says:

      Yeah, I’m tired of idiots, too.

      It’s called a “Colt .45 Automatic” because back in the day (1911 or so) “auto-loading” magazine-fed pistols were sometimes called “automatics”.

      The venerable M1911A1 is still frequently referred to as the “.45 Automatic”, and the cartridge has been called “.45 ACP” for over a century now.

      “.45 ACP” stands for, “.45 Automatic Colt Pistol”.

    2. Mikey says:

      Nice catch tiredofidiots.

      “Automatic pistol” refers to the fact that the gun “automatically” chambers a new round after discharging. The term is incorrectly used to distinguish the gun from a revolver. It is a fairly common mistake, “Semi-Automatic” is the correct term.

  28. Old Hacker says:

    The weapons were stolen very shortly after they were placed in the building. The thieves broke thru several locked doors to go straight to them. This is obviously and inside job, even the LAPD admits it.

  29. frank stevy says:

    I have wanted an MP5 for years, the ultimate weapon for survival & self defence . They start around $4k used and go up from there, would love to buy one ?

  30. Jack Kinch(1uncle) says:

    Never put a demo in charge of security

  31. walter12 says:

    It is true, the City of LA is out of control and rapidly approaching anarchy and complete chaos. With the monster Obama’s terrible economy and the massive numbers of illegal Mexicans, drugs, black and Mexican gangs, the welfare set, deadbeats galore, and an infestation of communists, it appears that LA is finished. Their only hope is the coming of the big one. That will clear things up.

  32. Chippy55 says:

    Nobody just stumbled upon them, so I’ll guess its an inside job by someone who was paid a lot. On the other hand it looks like someone stumbled upon the TOTUS and curiously (NOT!) theres a lot of thievery going on at the various Occupy sites. Was tax cheat Tim Geithner around?

  33. Hap1 says:

    I wonder how long it will be before they blame Bush…

  34. Buck O'Fama says:

    Dudes, did you like take your training from Eric Holder? Sounds like they were gone fast but is anyone furious?

    Well anyways if you dudes do happen to run across that weak chinned pencil neck Eric Holder, put in a good word for me an let him know I’m in the market for a heavy barrel Lapua or 50 cal. Thanks for the laughs and keep the change.

  35. dave says:

    Can way just say this was an inside job? I mean anyone investigating this could easily figure out it was someone within the police department who knew these firearms were there.

  36. David says:

    Just why do the cops need this firepower? Are they planning on “offing” us all, only to get away with it? Read up on Ruby Ridge. FBI agent shot Randy Weaver’s 14 year old boy in the back while he was running to get away from them. Did nothing illegal, and he is dead. Another agent murdered Weaver’s wife while she was holding their baby in her arms. No agent was ever charged in these murders. Wake up America.

  37. KAL says:

    No such thing as a Colt .45 automatic pistol

  38. keith says:

    probably a corrupt cop that took them

  39. jon says:

    Looks like someone watched Lethal Weapon 3. Get Riggs and Murtaugh to solve it!

  40. frankenberrycat says:

    The Colts are semi-auto. Not that facts are important to today’s left wing “journalists.”

  41. promenade press says:

    The prices listed below are outrageous. Drug dealers will have to sell way more drugs to Los Angeles kids, cops, judges, teachers, city employees and others to afford these weapons. We need less gun control. That way our children, cops, and judges etc. won’t have to buy so many drugs to support gun purchases.

  42. cbunix23 says:

    Actually the Gun Control Act of 1968, yes 1968, restricts imported machine guns to government only. The MP5 was orinially imported from Germany, and didnt even go into production until that year. Very few 100% German made MP5 are fully transferable. Almost all the fully transferables on the market are legal conversions done in the US before May 19, 1986.

  43. Michael Naretto says:

    It was silly to ban full auto’s from the general public. They are not the menace some people think they are:

    Crime with Legally Owned Machine Guns

    In 1995 there were over 240,000 machine guns registered with the ATF. About half are owned by civilians and the other half by police departments and other governmental agencies.

    Since 1934, there appear to have been at least two homicides committed with legally owned automatic weapons. One was a murder committed by a law enforcement officer. On September 15th, 1988, a 13-year veteran of the Dayton, Ohio police department, Patrolman Roger Waller, then 32, used his fully automatic MAC-11 .380 caliber submachine gun to kill a police informant, 52-year-old Lawrence Hileman. Patrolman Waller pleaded guilty in 1990, and he and an accomplice were sentenced to 18 years in prison. The 1986 ‘ban’ on sales of new machine guns does not apply to purchases by law enforcement or government agencies.

    The other homicide, possibly involving a legally owned machine gun, occurred on September 14, 1992, also in Ohio.

    In 1980, when Miami’s homicide rate was at an all-time high, less than 1% of all homicides involved machine guns. Although there are no national figures to compare to, machine gun deaths were probably lower elsewhere:

    1. Of 2,200 guns recovered by Minneapolis police (1987-1989), not one was fully automatic.

    2. A total of 420 weapons, including 375 guns, were seized during drug warrant executions and arrests by the Metropolitan Area Narcotics Squad (Will and Grundie counties in the Chicago metropolitan area, 1980-1989). None of the guns was a machine gun.

    3. 16 of 2,359 (0.7%) of the guns seized in the Detroit area (1991-1992) in connection with “the investigation of narcotics trafficking operations” were machine guns.

    Yes, I hope all of these weapons are recovered. But it is disingenuous to make the claim that full auto’s are being used all the time to massacre innocent people.

    Source: http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcfullau.html

  44. Kip Noxzema says:

    Notice the story doesn’t mention any locks being broken, or any kind of forced entry to get the weapons. That stinks like an inside job, all the way down the line.

  45. Mark K says:

    Joe is correct when he said that POST 1986 “Post Sample” machineguns are only sold to Dealers and Law enforcement. They go for around $1,500 a piece.

    But pre 1986 mp5’s in private ownership go for MUCH more. I’d say in the 12k to 15k ballbark for a full auto MP5 in good to excellent condition.

    Sound about right Joe?

    These guns can EASILY be modified back to fire live ammunition. I hope they find them before that happens.

  46. Bill says:

    I wonder if this isn’t part of the Obama administration program Fast and Furious to get weapons into the hands of criminals so he can go after our Second Amendment rights.

  47. Don't you believe it says:

    Who believes law enfoecement’s story about the “thefts’ post Fast and Furious?

  48. Jim Elder says:

    Conersion back to live fire capability from the Simunitions training kits is simple.

    Its well known in LE that gangs members have infiltrated the Law Enforcement community and also the US MIlitary. They are there to learn and to have access to the weapons and secure information. This is no secret, just another thing we as a nation prefer to sweep under the carpet.

  49. j says:

    The DEA have been stealing drugs from evidence lockup and reselling them. It has become a popular way in the Department of Justice’s DEA to make extra money.
    They also steal from suspects for which they have created fabricated or coerced heresay evidence.
    With some of the DEA suffering under mountains of credit card debt they have started to think outside the box.

  50. Regulas says:

    Are we sure this is not Fast and Furious 2, just asking? The Fascist left is rabid to get support to take away our guns.

  51. Texasbil says:

    Maybe the government took them so they could sell them in Mexico.

  52. Tyrone says:

    Sounds like inside job, right after transported there they are stolen . Just another part of our crooked Goverment.

  53. john says:

    The real question here is the militarization of police forces here in the US. Why does this nation, and now even the smaller municipalities within, need cops in full body armor and fully automatic weapons?

    These characters generally are just Delta Force and SEAL wannabes but without the balls or ability to do the real thing. And they’re held in boundless contempt by the guys who are the real thing.

    1. Drew Bello says:

      I agree John. These guys are weekday warriors that get a kick outta going after small time criminals and unarmed citizens. They should be protecting their citizens.

  54. Speedypete says:

    And try being a responsible, law abiding citizen with not even a speeding ticket and submit your application for a California Conceal Carry Permit. REJECTED! But outlaws have guns compliments of Los Angeles and Eric Holder. And just wait until the NYPD has one of their shoulder launched anti-aircraft missles stolen. You voters are being duped.

  55. Mark says:

    This AND rival gangs slugging it out in San Fran city hall? Wow … just look at what the California taxes are buying …

    1. Drew Bello says:

      What do they mean putting fire power potentially in the hands of criminals. Didnt they mean from one gang of criminals (LAPD) into anothers? I feel better that the LAPD is less 21 guns and however many handguns!

  56. Damon says:

    Wouldn’t it have been easier to just ask Eric Holder for a few weapons? Maybe a couple RPGs, a pallet or two of ammo? Come on, why make it hard on yourself.

    1. Mark says:

      LOL! I would agree, but, since operation gun giver was exposed, the federal policy of arming international drug cartels and criminals has been put on hold.

      1. Damon says:

        Damn, the republicans are such killjoys! We could all be walking around with wheelbarrows full of other peoples cash and assault weapons, if they didn’t get in the way.
        Oh, I forgot the drugs and “morning after pill” for whoever we shack up with on that particular day.
        As long as they don’t try to stop me from eating fatty foods and leave my salt alone, I’ll be fine

    2. Mark says:

      Yes, fatty foods!! Seriously, I raise my buttered bacon-wrapped-sausage in solidarity with you, Sir! I eat what I want and drink what I want as I work out a minimum of 5 days a week. Steak and Bacon!!!!

  57. Karl Magnus says:

    Too gobsmackingly stupid, on more then one level, for words.
    Y’all need a writer who knows something about firearms.
    ~(Ä)~

    1. Mark says:

      godsmackingly stupid, yes. There are more issues than wondering if they guns were found or missing. Basic security measures and personnel checks are supposedly paid for with tax dollars. Prosecute not only those who did this, but those who cleared these people to be inside the armory.

  58. seth says:

    you civilians with your “facts” on military equipment prices! lmfao! go back to selling copy machines, cuz your way off with the prices of guns that you can legally own and will probably only see at you super expensive gun clubs ahahahha

  59. djw663 says:

    Part of Fast and Furious II? That is almost as bad as the presidents security team letting their truck get stolen.

  60. Montgomery says:

    Maybe “the usual suspects” are arming the gangs, such as, the Blood and the Crips, MS13, the Black Panthers and others to disrupt election day?

  61. Donavan Stinson says:

    http://www.hkparts.net
    parts to change back to fireing normal are easily aquired. It is not as hard of task as the LAPD Chief is making it out to be. Maybe by him saying that he thinks he is dumbing down the seriousness of the situation.

  62. Lilbrick says:

    Again, imbeciles who are supposedly responsible for protecting the safety of the public has allowed an inexcusable, major crime to occur.

    Questions:
    1. Who will be held responsible? You guessed right: no one. Some people ought to be fired over this to say the least.

    2. Will they ever recover the missing hardware? It’s very highly likely that these weapons will never be found. The whole case will be chalked up as an “oh, so sorry” and the bill passed off to the taxpayers.

  63. Susystin says:

    Wonder if they are for Zero’s citizen militia that will be better armed and better funded than the military? Probably so.

  64. John T. says:

    Sounds like the LA LA PD needs to introduce a new training program.
    Let’s call it “How to keep your semiautomatics from being stolen.”

    But the burning question in the minds of all Americans is:
    Who stole obama’s teleprompter?
    We can rule out BIN BIDEN because he’s still ad libbing that not passing the jobs bill immediately is causing more rapes and murders across the country.

  65. Rocky says:

    Joe was perhaps the brightest of the comments.
    However, reading these just solidify’s my theory as to why we have such idiots running the country.
    An average IQ of 10 writes these little lines and also vote the idiots into office. Let’s all blame it on Bush !
    And who says they are in the Cartels hands or the Bloods or the Crips ?
    Also, these are converted for Simunition and not blanks and are easily returned to fire real ammo and many countries have been licensed for the G3 platform as with the AR platform.
    Maybe CAIR knows where they went ?

  66. Rocky says:

    Sorry.
    I should have added La Raza, The Muslim Brotherhood, The Black Panthers, The National Socialist Party, Hamas and Hezbollah to my comment. They all have a presence on US Soil !
    They all have access to deep pockets and they all hate America

  67. alex says:

    You guys are dumb the ATF didnt just hand them the keys to the gun locker they rented the truck to move them too duh! They plan this time to trace them all the way back to the scene of a murder just like last time.

    21 new machine guns in so cal – yeah that would be just enough to round off the total to an even billion or so.

    I’m more worried about how there are 10’s of thousands of illegals with auto theft records in san diego county alone these days.

  68. alex says:

    hey does anyone think I can put a legal defense together under the providence of “finders keepers”?

  69. plainreviews says:

    Wow how could they steal guns from the SWAT, SWAT, let me say that again, SWAT. Maybe they had silencers so people couldn’t hear them. If you want to know how a silencer reduces the gun sound, this article gives a great explanation.

    http://explainlikeakid.blogspot.com/2011/10/how-silencer-works.html

  70. J. Saporito says:

    With the right laws it doesn’t matter. And to get the right laws, write your representatives. It’s a thankless task – they don’t change the laws that night; but it’s your civic duty and it’s how our system was set up to work. If we don’t petition our legislators, only the bankers et al. will (and they do which is why they get their way). I tell my rep. that I’m for outlawing violence, that is – keep violent people in a cage, release all non-violent offenders. I don’t walk the streets worried that a computer hacker or embezzler is going to jump out of the bushes. Name one incident of a homicide where the perp. did not already have a history of violence. Punishment is not justice. Taking bad people off the play ground THE FIRST TIME THEY’RE VIOLENT is justice. There will be more than enough room for them after non-violent offenders are released and the prisons will still be smaller. And there will be no such thing as a part of town free people are not allowed to go. tyfyt

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